veterans died while waiting to see a doctor that the the a spent $27 million on a high and art portfolio. it was christmas trees price like cars. it was sculptures priced like five-bedroom homes. there were two sculptures for $700,000 procured by of the a center that serves blind veterans. there was a block sculptor with all in landscaping for $1.2 million. this is the type of waste that is in our government. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q&a." announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: our next guest is mark krikorian. he serves as the executive director to talk about the presence announcement yesterday. the center for immigration studies, what is the position that you take on immigration legal any legal?

guest: we are a think tank that supports tighter controls on immigration, better enforcement, and lower levels of legal immigration. basically because mass immigration is really not an appropriate policy in modern society in a way that 100 or 200 years ago we could've made it work. immigrants are really not all that different. we are different. host: when it comes to the president's decision yesterday, what do you think about the mechanics of what he introduced and the way he did? guest: he really had to do this. he should have done this in january. daca is an unlawful program. there something no excuse for it. arepeople defending daca essentially saying that ends justifies the means. because these are sympathetic illegal immigrants, and i personally think that congress should put together a deal that includes amnesty for them, but it has to be done lawfully. obama cannot get it through congress so he did it unlawfully.

the president did and it and sent it back to congress, which is what we want a president to do. -- lawmakerskers should be the one to make the law and to have a chance to do it. host: al green said the sticking point was offering citizenship to those who might be affected by that. what do you think of that? guest: you would give them a green card, which is permanent residents. after a certain number of time, they could get citizenship if they wanted to. i'm for that. the idea of having second class citizens is a mistake. the real sticking point is should a bill simply give elsety to daca and nothing or should there be provisions included to try to limit or contain the harmful fallout of amnesty? every amnesty draws more illegal immigration because you are sending a message abroad that you're getting away with it. that's the real sticking point. it's not do they get green cards

or do they get a permanent work visa? the real holdup is though will there be a package that includes illegal immigration reductions and enforcement tightening as part of the amnesty or won't there? host: what should be in this package? guest: as far as enforcement goes, the most important thing that congress needs to deliver e-verified mandate. it's an online system that employers use when they hire somebody. this is an online system where you can check whether that person is telling the truth. a lot of people use it. half of all new hires were screened through this. but it's not mandatory. making that mandatory is something only congress can do. you know what tomorrow about the family of illegal immigrants to be able to get here and stay here for 20 years with their three-year-old that he have to do another dream act later.

another other part is that every amnesty creates downstream legal immigration surge is because our system, the way it is now, if you have relatives coming get to bring the relatives. husband, wife, and little kids, which everybody agrees, but adult parents and siblings what have you. those categories of the legal immigration system need to be eliminated. this is something that senator tom cotton and sen. perdue: florida have introduced legislation called the rate at. for combined with amnesty daca would actually be a sensible move that does not solve everything and immigration , but it gives everybody a little bit of something that they want. host: the lines will be on the screen. ,emocrats at (202) 748-8000 republicans at (202) 748-8001, independence at (202) 748-8002. if you want to get perspective on the last day or so, (202)

748-8003. what about the six-month deadline? is that realistic to come up with something? guest: that's half a year. is that realistic? yes, they can do it if they want to. the real question is team congress get their act together and do something in six months? i think they came if they are interested and motivated in doing this. this is monday morning quarterback in now, but i think the president should have done this in january when he took over as he promised to do during the campaign and give them to the end of the year. the point is giving them a grace period makes sense. even when that is over, it's only the case that the daca permits will begin to expire. it will take two whole years for everybody to lose their daca work permits if nothing happens. it's not just six months. it's a 2.5 year window that congress has to act. even congress should be able to act with of that. wet: earlier in the program,

showed a statement from the u.s. hispanic chamber of commerce that left because of the decision made yesterday. he talked about the economic impact added to the economy because of the work of dreamers. what do you think about that economically and is of the risk taking those people out of the workforce and potentially the economic benefit they bring? guest: it is confusing to issues. exist?ue is should daca the other is show the young begin covered by daca legal status? as those are two different questions. daca is an unlawful program it has to be added. if you are arguing we have to keep daca because of economics and nothing else, you're saying the end justifies the means and the ends does not justify the means. host: legislatively you would support a fix? guest: actually.

host: the first call is peter from valley college, new york. caller: good morning. pleasure to speak to you. there something i don't understand and maybe you can explain it. i keep reading the paper and seeing in the news that the building industry is complaining that they don't have enough labor and they cannot keep up with building homes because they don't have enough cheap labor. also, people in the agricultural industry are saying the same thing. we have between 15 and 30 million people here illegally. we have over a million people in the country a year. they are complaining that they don't have enough labor. i don't get it. is the economy growing that quickly that they have enough people? they already increased the hb2 visas. can you explain that? guest: what we are really talking about his employers

always what a looser labor market. what that means is more people chasing around fewer jobs. that puts employers in the driver seat. it's easier to recruit people and it'll have to pay them as much. that is what employers always one. for workers, the best option is a tight labor market where there are fewer people chasing more jobs so that the workers are in the driver seat and they can say no, i actually will like arrays. the employers would have to pay attention. immigration loosens the labor market. that is why business always, always is in favor of more legal immigration, looser enforcement of the laws, more guestworker programs because it always loosens the labor market and makes their job easier.

the question for policymakers and people thing about policy is who are you rooting for? do you want to make life easier for ordinary workers? or do you want to make life easier for employers and businessman? not always a fixed pie. -- sometimes both people can benefit from it. sometimes you have to decide who are you rooting for? i'm rooting for ordinary workers as a close to employers. host: eduardo, hello. caller: hello, how are you doing? host: go ahead. you are on. caller: i'm on? host: yes, go ahead. caller: hello, how are you doing? igood morning. thatt want to talk about he said the daca people is an unlawful thing and the

president should have done that when he got to office. you know what? look at the picture. there has been an investigation. he has broken many laws and no one has done nothing to him. ok, we are not criminals. we went to the moon. there was a german scientist who is a mass murderer. host: your question about daca to our guest? caller: i think it's a shame what they are doing. it's a shame what the president is doing. my question about daca? host: we will leave it there. guest: the rule of law has to be enforced.

a lot of the dacas are sympathetic people. the media makes them out to be valedictorians. that's nonsense. there are regular people with some of them good, some of them that. bad. if the job for lawmakers to make laws and not the job of the president. president obama himself before issuing this daca decree for political expediency purposes had said that he did not have proper authority to do that. host: from lake have a sioux city, goode havasu morning. caller: it seems everybody is blaming trump and that's a little bit far-fetched. this problem has been here long before him. obama has given us a band-aid on a situation totally out of hand. it's kind of like for me, we talked all around the problem. is like being on a boat with a

hole in it. you can scoop water out, but you have to plug the hole. i don't know if it's what? the bill of rights? somehow or another we have to disallow illegal children into our public schools. that is the whole. you cannot solve this problem by letting illegals come and come. we will have a sign-up come on, bring your kids, get them into school. it doesn't work. you have to plug the hole. guest: the basic point that the caller is making his right. amnesty doesn't solve anything. the image of bailing out the boat before you plug the hole is correct. we have got to fix the problem before you talk about tying up the loose ends or bailing out the boat. you have to plug the hole first.

amnesty is an example of basically bailing out the boat. the dreamers really are special case. this is why i think you can make a case for amnesty them up front as part of a deal that includes enforcement. there are different from other illegal immigrants. have the capacity to make this decision to break the law, especially those who grew up here from a very young age. there's a good case to make for that. the broader issue of legalizing the rest of the illegal population should not even be a discussion until we plug the hole and fix the problem. host: let's take a listen to one of those perspectives. this is center dick durbin of illinois and lindsey graham of south carolina talking about the resurrection of the dream act come forward. here's what they had to say yesterday. [video clip] announced today by the trump white house was a disappointment to me.

the first and only direct which ition with had with president trump was his inauguration and i thanked him about the kind where to set about dreamers and daca. he looked me in i said don't worry about those kids. we are going to take care about the streamers. i trusted the president to do that. we had many meetings in the white house with people on his staff talking about how we might achieve that goal of making sure that the dreamers would have their day and their opportunity. today, this announcement handed down first by attorney general jeff sessions and that by the president tells us that the clock is ticking. we are now in a countdown toward deportation for 780,000 protected by daca today. to those young men and women across america, i can tell you that this is a moment of great concern, great fear, and great anxiety about what will happen to their lives. they include teachers and engineers, medical students at

loyola school of medicine in the city of chicago who are uncertain now about their future. senator graham and i want to deliver as a message today that we need to do our job right here in the united states senate. we need to pass in this month of september a dream act, and permanent law in this country that says that these young people will have their chance to become part of america's future. host: as far as not only what they talked about, talk about this idea of the numbers involved in the effectiveness of deporting them. guest: just is a detail, 780,000 people have gotten daca at some point the past five years. right now, it is 690,000 that have daca today. it is 700,000 or 800,000. the important point that senator durbin brought up is really a scare tactic that they will all

be deported. as soon as your work permit expires, ice will knock on your door next morning and say you've got to go. . the way law enforcement works. there something like fall million illegal immigrants in this country. if a daca loses his work permit and daca protections, he might well get supported, but it will be if he engages in problematic behavior. some people with daca have been deported because they have committed crimes. that will continue. the idea that 700,000 or 800,000 people will be rounded up because the government has their information is false and a scare tactic. host: deborah is up next for our guest, mark krikorian. caller: yes, sir. i recall a short time ago that president trump did the h one visa or h2 -- i forget what it's called -- for workers at his

mar-a-lago place for people to work for him. no wonder he says he loves them. i've heard the president reagan andthe same thing as obama president bush, senior did the same thing that obama did. i do not know why you're calling it unconstitutional. i cannot figure out what side you're on. thank you. guest: there are two issues. first you brought up the use of these guestworker visas. the president's property down there in florida does in fact use them. even during the campaign he talked about it was necessary and we can't find workers, some of the usual businessman nonsense about we need to bring your workers. of president has the sort businessman instincts about immigration and many of them are not good. there's a lot better don't agree with what the president.

has clearly something that has got to be changed. the other point about presidents having done something like daca is partly true but not sure enough to actually be true, which is to say that previous presidents have used this idea of deferred action on a much smaller scale. congress was ok with letting the president use the discretionary gave him in a very limited specific fashion. what obama did is dialed this up to 11. he took it expression for individual cases and blew it out and give it to hundreds of thousands of people. and's a usurpation of power that is what the attorney general was talking about is unconstitutional. host: it was on a facebook post of president obama put out there and he did so based on legal principles and prosecutorial discretion. discretionecutorial

-- what it means is that you decide in the real world whether you're going to prosecute somebody, but you up to people. the only have time to prosecute one of them. did is usesident that as a pretext to establish this expansive program that give benefits to hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants. that is not the proper use of prosecutorial discretion. today inre's a story "usa today" talking about apple and microsoft pledging to shield employers who could face trouble or deportation because of this act. john kasich was on the news today inviting folks to come to ohio. what do you think about those avenues and the resistance it might prove to the effort of the president with daca? guest: depends what they're doing coul. harboring illegal immigrants is a federal crime. if apple or facebook once the harbor illegal immigrants and

their continuing to employ them for instance, that's a federal crime and they should be prosecuted for that. this doesn't sound my lawful prosecution. host: republican line -- sarah from virginia. caller: good morning. we are in a society in which we want everyone to be equal. people a whole group of who are scared to be in united states. that is what legal immigration breeds. -- illegal immigration breeds. it breeds a group of people that have to hide in shadows, take less for their wages, cannot

demand array raise. to get assistance unless they skirt around some way. this is not what america is. america is please come here. we want you to work. we want you to have the same benefits. we want your child to have the same education as our children. goodnt you to get the paying qualifying jobs that you are entitled to. come across the border illegally and that is what we offer you , but if you come across illegally, why should we offer anything? guest: equal citizen and illegal immigration that we which is what has

happened for a long time undermines that. points out, there are two options, one, let everybody in the world move here, there are a lot of people here in washington who believe there should be no that is immigration, not the real-world position, though. he alternative is whatever limits we set, we need to enforce. hat we have now, limits in the law. numerical limit and various requirements we don't enforce sneak in any way, we'll let you stay, that is no you end n the system, up as the caller suggested with class of people who are not citizens to the rest of us and that is bad news. host: hear from dennis, burlington, north carolina. caller: yes. denise. i am just calling because it's see upsetting to me to saying all in basically

we support people breaking the law. think we've had enough problems in this country with following the law and people keep saying, and this is all, youg to me most of have people supposed to be in the news organizations, supposed people information and they're lying. keep quoting, you know, articles about microsoft and saying they're going to aliens if the l laws are passed against them, political out the article in politico that well, this summer because of the crackdown on illegal immigration, companies to hire americans. oh, my god. they had to pay them higher wages. oh, my god. just had a -- we

u.s. congressman in the segment spent most of his time talking about daca. 'm like, okay, this is an andcan american congressman his community, black community before hurricane this is the thing that just makes me the most point.nd this is my last you had this congressman, who is democrat, and you had president obama who passed daca, it was a cruel thing for him to because it ensured these get e would never citizenship. host: got you. you.k guest: two responses to denise's comments. barbara jordan, civil rights pioneer said when see was head immigration commission, she

said, people, the goal should be his, people who should be allowed in are let in, people who should not be allowed in are out, people who shouldn't be here are made to leave, that is the clear statement of what policy is tion supposed to be about that we're not seeing. i think on the houston issue, glad she brought this up. we're seeing a flood of stories houston needs more who will migrants, rebuild houston? a lot of people in houston didn't have work, not just black americans, did you tell black rtionately americans. specifically talking about ouston, and everywhere, basically saying americans in general, black americans in don't lar, but necessarily have to specify it aren't that good as workers go, of defective, let's bring in people who are better. abhorrent t

perspective. host: you are quoted in "new look imes" story taking a at jeff sessions' announcement yesterday. "the white house needed him, mr. do this, i don't think trump would have delivered convincing performance to sessions' allys a and director of the center you his body o on to say, language and ad libbing would undercut his message. on that?xpand guest: what i meant was the ambivalent about this issue and his comments over the years, even senator durbin's to what he said to the president on inauguration day uggest that, the president is torn on this. he doesn't know what to do, he's advice, from ing staff of the white house. f he were to make the announcement, i think it would have been a much more half-hearted, ambivalent announcement. he tweeted last night something to the effect that i've given months, if they

don't pass the bill, i will then.it it host: escape -- guest: i think so. told the democrats, you tonight to negotiate, almost negotiating with himself. somebody ghost write, that is not how you make deals by negotiating with on day one. host: this is the tweet the guest referenced, this was sent by the president yesterday, particularly he says congress has six months to legalize daca fthey can't, i will revisit the issue. that is what he said. next in georgia, democrat's line. from georgia. caller: good morning. host: ronnie, go ahead. caller: what about legalizing, we have illegal aliens here, about the people that are hiring them? what is the problem there? law to punish those whether ls

agricultural, construction, we are not addressing that. jumping over the situation by saying it is isegal alien problem, no, it people hiring these people and getting away with it because of labor. this modern day slavery and you know this. you continue to hold this it is okay.as if like to hear your comments. guest: i appreciate your call. no tis not okay. 1986, what we saw in united states had amnesty, but the trade-off was for the first made it illegal to hire illegal immigrants. efore 1986, hard to believe it was legal to hire illegal aliens. the problem is, in the has been nos, there real enforcement on this, we just published a small book on topic actually by pulitzer jerry inning author

kammer. it is on amazon. history, the failure of enforcing immigration laws at the work site. completely. illegal immigrants are breaking the law and they are grownups, e, they are responsible for decisions. we need to start seeing not just fine, but arrested. t.v., to see walks on guy necessary handcuff, send the message illegal immigrants are but the people hiring them, which is what is first them here in the place are also responsible. host: you think that will come to that? people and talked to the problem is not some white house plot to not go after businessmen. in such a way d two main divisions. and oes deportation part that is quite active in all of this, not a problem. customs part does the

matters, like counterfeit gucci all kind of things enforcement.e the people who work in customs oriented department, they don't immigration, they don't want to do immigration enforcement. it is almost bureaucratic issue to force change in priorities. i've been assured that is in the works. i'd like to see actual results. host: by whom? dhs.t: by people inside host: within what time frame? guest: i don't know, i haven't a good handle on that, i wish i knew. problem.w, it is a we are going to see some real ork site enforcement, but people need to keep demanding and making that point, it's important, too. because americans see illegal taken into eing custody and deported and that is an appropriate thing, but they to see for the

legitimacy of that process that mployers are also paying the price, crooked employers and that is one reason, another e-verify need this system for everybody because a lot of employers who are hiring immigrants don't necessarily know who is illegal and who isn't. but most uspect, employers hiring illegal immigrants are not crooks. a position t in where they really don't know and ompetitors are hiring, they don't want to ask questions. when everybody is on even playing field legitimate know who comply and we the real crooks are and can go after them hard. u.s. what level is the chamber and other business type groups involved in the issue, with those under daca? guest: well, the chamber has been quite active on the issue.tion daca less so, it is not business elated thing, they have been one of the biggest obstacles to having a tight immigration chamber of u.s.

commerce is consistently argued looser enforcement and higher levels. agree in say, they did the previous congress to a bill e-verify system. and so that is, they have played constructive part, what we need to see is people in congress that legislation, as i said before, packaging it with amnesty to sweeten the pot and get everybody something. eigh might actually see some incremental, but real progress. centerark krikorian with for immigration studies, you want to check out their position. we're going back to the question gettinged this morning, your thoughts and opinions on the decision by the trump daca stration to rescind and give congress six months to come up with legislative correction. for those who

support the effort. if you support what the president did yesterday. it, 202-748-8001. for those who are illegal mmigrants wanting to give perspective on this, 202-748-8002. take those call when is we come back. >> sunday night on q&a, adam andrzejewski, founder and sea of open the books announced taxpayer dollars are spent and the need for government transparency. >> veterans affairs we audited their checkbook for the past and last summer we found that during period where veterans died while waiting to see a doctor, million on spent $20 high-end art portfolio. o it was 27-foot christmas trees costing the amount like priced like cars $21,000. it was sculptures priced like five bedroom homes, it was two for $700,000 procured

by a v.a. center that serves veterans. it was a cubed rock skulture all $1.2 andscaping for million. this is the type of waste that our government. >> sunday night 8 eastern on c-span's q&a. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's companies and n is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. >> "washington journal" continues. host: again, the phone lines, if ou support the president's action yesterday on daca, it's 202-748-8000. oppose it, 202-748-8001. immigrants, gal 2-